Green hydrogen, renewable and nuclear. Cingolani’s ideas read by Tabarelli
Start Magazine with the economist Tabarelli launches in-depth studies with several voices on the guidelines of the Ecological Transition Department announced by Minister Cingolani.
The Minister of Ecological Transition Roberto Cingolani , in his hearing yesterday in Parliament, outlined the guidelines of his department. Green hydrogen, renewable and nuclear. We talked about these knots, some very intricate, with the economist Davide Tabarelli , professor at the University of Bologna and president of Nomisma Energia. In fact, Start Magazine has decided to investigate the guidelines indicated by Cingolani with analysts and experts in the sector.
Minister Cingolani spoke of the choice to focus on green hydrogen. Do you share it?
Sure, but it's like saying "Mom is good". It is one of those trivializations that you do not miss and that are often heard in the speeches of politicians. Difficult not to share them. But what Minister Cingolani said is that green hydrogen cannot be produced before 10 years , he was brave enough to say that it will not be immediate. Meanwhile, it will have to converge on blue hydrogen. And continue with what is being done today, the gray one. Cingolani has curbed the easy enthusiasm, so in this respect it is positive.
What is the difference between green hydrogen and blue hydrogen?
The blue one is made with natural gas, methane which is a hydrogen atom surrounded by four carbon. So there is a lot of hydrogen in methane, it's relatively simple. It is the simplest way to find it. However, this process produces CO2 which is captured and put back underground, which is easy to say but less to do. While the green one is hydrogen that comes from water , H2O, and is produced with the separation of oxygen from hydrogen, H2 remains. This process consumes a lot of electricity. Except that we do not get electricity only from the sun and the wind, beautiful but discontinuous and difficult to store energy sources, but also and above all from fossil sources. A dog chasing its own tail.
What are the companies that could benefit from the new government address?
Those who work with renewable sources because they will be able to do more, will be able to produce more wind turbines and solar panels . But there are also large companies such as Enel and Terna that have been present for a long time on electricity. The energy transition means more electricity consumption, more electricity grids will need to be built. The management of electricity requires investments, so in the future more revenues, more profitability, more employment, in short, more growth. But I imagine that Eni will also be favored because they know how to capture CO2 and biofuels very well. In short, there is room for everyone, for all those who want to innovate.
What do you think of the minister's idea of nuclear fusion?
Which is the technology of the next 30 years. Which we have been saying for 70 years, since the atomic bomb went off. It is far and very difficult. We are making enormous efforts because the merger cannot be controlled . This is why the minister spoke of 2050, that's what they say in the scientific field. Except that it was said even in the 70s. But I know, even from his other interventions in the past, that Minister Cingolani does not even disdain nuclear power with fission .
Without nuclear power, will we be able to reduce CO2 emissions?
No. The effort we make to reduce CO2 is huge, and we will pay for it in terms of deindustrialisation and degrowth, not happy. We are the only ones in Europe to have a GDP lower than that of 2008. We who are at the top of the class, with a ministry of energy transition, and with all these new ministers who fill their mouths with terms such as " sustainability " as if we had not been sustainable enough until now … So if until now we have been unsustainable, I invite those who support them not to use fossil fuels , not to use the car, to go to work on foot, to use means of transport, or to use only 30% of the electricity they use which corresponds to the share of electricity that comes from renewable sources, in this way it would be consistent. The reality of the world is different from what is being told.
Among other things, we are the country that hastily abandoned nuclear power with a referendum in 1987. Would it be difficult to retrace our steps?
Look, we are the country that invented the scientific method with Galileo Galilei. And Minister Cingolani is a very distant descendant of that very prestigious Italian physics school . Talking about energy with Cingolani means talking about physics. It occurs to me that the CEO of ENI, one of the most envied oil companies in the world, is a physics graduate. Talking about energy also means talking about nuclear power. In Italy we invented nuclear power with the nobel prize Enrico Fermi, who discovered the principles that controlled nuclear fission. It is a tragedy not to have it. In 1987 we had three plants and we decided to shut them down. Many have come out of nuclear power but have not thrown away the baby and the bathwater. In France they have 53 reactors from which we have been importing the equivalent of three large nuclear power plants for 35 years. We are the country that is most dependent on imported energy and this is a tragedy. And it demonstrates the inability to generate energy in our country. I find it hard to think that this country can make the energy revolution.
Did the negative mention of electric batteries surprise you?
No, it didn't surprise me. Minister Cingolani is a scientist and he knows these things very well. The domination of oil has been unchallenged for 50 years. We should choose to stop depending on oil for much more important reasons than environmental ones, for wars, because it is a damnation for exporting countries. Already 70 years ago we should have abandoned it . But we don't abandon it for one reason: energy density. One kg of diesel fuel holds 13,000 kcal, the best lithium batteries are 300 kcal . He understands that even if we double the power it will not be enough for our needs. The batteries are used to recharge our mobile phones, to make the Tesla go downtown. But it will take hours to recharge them for slightly longer journeys. There is a physical limit to batteries. We use electric cars in the city for short trips. We manage to recharge a lot and often. The public refills, among other things, are not efficient, they are all empty, and they have cost, they could have been beds in the hospital. We don't have to be frightened by climate change, okay, it's an urgency.
But there may be more urgent needs.
We have made a great waste with renewable sources , only in Germany have they spent less but they are richer, they do not have a falling GDP like us. We are giving 10-12 billion euros a year to panels half of which have been built in China , using electricity made with coal. It does not make sense.
Cingolani also spoke of bureaucratic transition. In your opinion, what could be the key to speeding up and reforming auctions for renewables?
The key is what the minister hinted at but in a convoluted way. These things must be reported to the head of the state. The reform of Title V of the Constitution made in 2001 was a failure on many things, among which, we have recently seen, health care. In the field of energy too it was a negative decision. Nobody wants drills, and we can understand this, but they also don't want photovoltaic panels in agricultural areas, in abandoned fields, they don't want wind turbines because they are ugly, they kill birds and prevent migration. If we leave the possibility of deciding to the individual territories, it is inevitable to face closures. We need to re-centralize.
This is a machine translation from Italian language of a post published on Start Magazine at the URL https://www.startmag.it/energia/idrogeno-verde-rinnovabili-e-nucleare-le-idee-di-cingolani-lette-da-tabarelli/ on Wed, 17 Mar 2021 15:20:38 +0000.